More Than Red Flags to be Aware Of with Katie Schaumann | RU015

Barb Greenberg: 00:00:03

Hello, and welcome to rediscovering you where you will find valuable insights, support and education to help you move through the difficult and often painful process of divorce with grace and courage and hope and find the ultimate gift of rediscovering yourself. I'm your host, Barb Greenberg, award winning author and founder of rediscovering you. If I'd had access to a resource like this during my divorce, I would have not felt so isolated, I would have made much better decisions, I still would have breathed for that for so hard for so long. And I wouldn't have eaten so many boxes of macaroni and cheese. When women heal, families heal, when families heal communities heal. When communities heal, the possibilities are endless. Let's get started.

Barb Greenberg: 00:00:56

I'm really looking forward to hearing our speaker today. She has so much valuable information to share with you. Her name is Katie Schaumann. And she is the coordinator, the program coordinator, program communications coordinator for southern Valley Alliance, which is a nonprofit that supports women who are dealing with abuse. And so they share education and support and all sorts of wonderful things. She is let me look at her bio here. It's cut she joined them the summer of 2020. So recently, yeah. And she is responsible for expanding their programming, and reaching the community through promotions and awareness and education. And I'm thrilled that she's here because so many don't even recognize that there's abuse. And it starts very slowly. And then you do the Oh, my partner just had a bad day at work. Oh, my partner really didn't mean that. Oh, and it just before you know it, you're trapped. So I think what she's going to share today, I know what she's going to share today is really important, though I want to know, Katie, what drew you to this work? Or what do you enjoy the most about this work?

Katie Schaumann: 00:02:27

Yeah, actually, it's a little bit of a weird story. I previously was working at a performance arts theater, I have a degree in Fine Arts. My background is in music and photography. And so this is a completely new world for me in terms of career and topic and content, that have always wanted to use my gifts and my creativity to be able to make an impact and difference in my community. And so while I was working at the theater, just wanted to be doing more wanted to just have another outlet for my creativity. And in the summer of 2020. As we were all experiencing a pandemic, I was looking for a new job, something different, something that I could just jump into, and make a difference in and I saw the listing for this position at Southern Valley Alliance open up and at the theater, I was the Community Engagement Coordinator, which is the very similar role to what I'm doing here at Southern Valley Alliance. And I was like, Oh, this sounds like a dream job getting to be creative getting to be out in the public having conversations, being in the community, just raising awareness. And I went for I was like, let's, let's apply for this job and see, see what happens. And I got the position. And so I've just been on a very steep learning curve ever since. But I have been enjoying every moment of it. It definitely was a huge, huge change for me, in many, many ways, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

Barb Greenberg: 00:04:01

That's so cool. And I love how many of us have opportunity to make a huge, huge change. And it's, you know, they, you know, it's the right thing to do, but you're like, Oh,

Katie Schaumann: 00:04:13

I know, it can be kind of scary sometimes. But you just you know, you find those people that you have around you to just speak life and encouragement into you and dream alongside them and just say, All right, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna jump, let's jump and it happened and it's great. And so here I am.

Barb Greenberg: 00:04:32

That's so cool. That's like a perfect thing for women who are divorcing. It's just the same story, you know, only a different context. Yeah, definitely share what's where southern Valley Alliance? What communities they serve.

Katie Schaumann: 00:04:47

Sure. So like you mentioned previously, we are a nonprofit organization. We provide all of the domestic violence services for Scott and Carver counties in Minnesota, and so serving quite a wide range And recently, we actually changed our name from Southern Valley Alliance for battered women to southern Valley Alliance opening our doors to anyone in the community that might be experiencing abuse.

Barb Greenberg: 00:05:11

That's I like that change. Yeah. doesn't have that. It has more. It's more hopeful. You know? Yeah, just it's I like it a lot. So

Katie Schaumann: 00:05:26

yeah, we're excited for it.

Katie Schaumann: 00:05:27

Good job. Good job. And I'm thrilled that you're here. And I'm not going to waste any more time, I want you to go right for it. All right. The first thing I thought we could talk about is, you know, why people abuse and why people stay in those relationships.

Katie Schaumann: 00:05:46

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I do want to say just quickly, before we dive in a little bit of a disclaimer, because a lot of the things that we are going to chat about today can be difficult for those that have experienced abuse, or, you know, based on your different lived experiences, this might be a topic that's difficult to listen to. And it might impact you differently than others that are listening to it. So I just want to kind of put that out there ahead of time to let you know that we are going to be talking about domestic abuse and some difficult topics. So feel free to practice some self care, either during the time you're listening to the podcast or afterwards and reach out to some friends and family to have those conversations with afterwards as well. Because you know, this can this can bring up some some past emotion, some current emotions, and it's good to just be able to work through those things.

Barb Greenberg: 00:06:35

Oh, I'm really glad you said that. That's really important. Thank you.

Katie Schaumann: 00:06:40

Yeah, of course. So talking a little bit about why people abuse and there are a few different things that come to mind. And that we know as domestic violence providers and health care providers. Abuse is a choice and a learned behavior, which isn't commonly known in the public. So that's kind of where it all comes from. Maybe people who are choosing to use harm have seen it growing up in their home, and you might be popular, you might know that phrase, hurt people hurt people. That's kind of where this idea comes from. So they might have experienced it in their home growing up, maybe seen it with their parents growing up seeing that cycle over and over. It's also very common for people to see it glamorized on television or in media, and just say, Oh, that relationship that I see on the TV screen or in this television show looks ideal. I want to have what that they have on that show. And it might not be the healthiest behaviors that they're seeing other different things, people might not think that unequal relationships are bad. There are some cultures and some communities where unequal relationships that's very common, and just not having that understanding of this as an equal partnership together. So those are some of those reasons why people might choose to use abuse or choose to use harm.

Barb Greenberg: 00:08:18

That was really good. That was really good. And why then, do people stay? I know, it's so common to stay? Isn't there a statistic about how many times women leave and come back?

Katie Schaumann: 00:08:30

Yeah, on average, it's about seven times someone might leave and come back and an abusive relationship and that the few things that I'm going to mention today are just a few, like a couple little things of reasons why people might say, relationships can be so complex, especially if maybe you're married or you have children together. There are so many reasons why somebody might stay but maybe there's some conflicting emotions, really having love for your significant other that's using abuse, and not wanting them to get in trouble hoping that things can change, wanting things to get better and seeing the good in the situation instead of focusing on the bad. And other things could be fear. Afraid of what might happen if you leave that abusive relationship, what is my abuser going to do if I try and step out and try and seek help. Other things can include fear of embarrassment or fear of getting taken away from your community. If you have a friend community or your social status, pressure, religious pressure, cultural pressure, maybe you are parenting or you're pregnant and going to be having a child with this person having those pressures of I have to put my kids first like it's, I don't have another place that I can go and live I'm not currently working and my abuser is my provider as well. So they're the list can go on On in every relationship is different, every individual is different. And so we along with all domestic violence agencies, we work so, so hard to be able to work one on one with those that we're serving, because we know that every situation is unique and going to be a little bit different. So assessing truly what that person needs during that time.

Barb Greenberg: 00:10:22

I like that it cuz you are absolutely right. It's so specific to each situation,

Katie Schaumann: 00:10:29

definitely. And then if you're thinking of like different cultural and religious beliefs, there's a whole nother opportunity for the abuser to use power and control in that relationship. So how can we be best, culturally responsive?

Barb Greenberg: 00:10:46

And I know there are so many different types of abuse, can you go through a few of those.

Katie Schaumann: 00:10:56

And this, this is not an exhaustive list, like there are a few main categories of abuse and the ways in which someone who is choosing to use harm can gain power and control over someone else, again, can look so different to pay depending on your life, and your experiences and your culture and your background. So this is just a few examples of what this can look like we've got sexual abuse, or reproductive coercion, there's physical abuse, and stalking, those forms of abuse are most commonly talked about, or most commonly, people are aware of those forms of abuse. But it's also important to note that there's verbal abuse, psychological abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, and there is digital and social abuse, which is we're seeing that on the rise right now, especially as we're all experiencing this ongoing pandemic. And we're all learning how to use technology in different ways. We're seeing an increase in technology being used against people. But then there's also a way for abusers and harmed viewers to use pets and property, or using that cultural and spiritual aspect of things as well as forms of abuse. So that's kind of those few main categories of abuse and the examples. And I don't know, we're so limited in time, I could talk about this forever. And there are great resources that I can share at the end, too, if you want to dive in and learn more specifically about one of these categories of abuse, I would definitely encourage you to take some time, there are really awesome resources out

Barb Greenberg: 00:12:41

there. Thank you. And, and I, I know the verbal abuse, we've had people say there's a book called The verbally abusive relationship, and women have read it and gone, I had no idea. I had no idea. That's what was going on. Because sometimes it's not yelling, some much more subtle, but you start to disappear. You just go away

Katie Schaumann: 00:13:08

on the language that's being used to being told over and over that you're worthless. No one could ever love you. Eventually, you start believing those things, once you're hearing it over and over by someone that you know, and that you love, and that you trust that they have your best interests at hand. It can get so hard, just integrating that over such long periods of time, even short periods of time just enduring that daily.

Barb Greenberg: 00:13:35

It's really true. And then it's even harder to leave because you've lost any sense of yourself that someone wants to say, she said, You know, one of our classes, she said, you know, he could have thrown me up against the refrigerator all day long. But what hurt more was the verbal because it goes way deep inside and breaks down who you are to the core. Yeah. And so, and the financial, that's just a new one that people are realizing. Yeah, talk a little bit about that. Because we've had people come and go on to our classes and go, I can't leave. How can I leave? I definitely want myself Oh, my God, he's, you know, he's frozen all the accounts. He's frozen credit cards, I have nothing.

Katie Schaumann: 00:14:23

Yeah. Well, and it's so it's so amazing that you bring this up. So financial abuse, specifically just sharing a little bit of a story from my perspective. Previously, even before I worked here at Southern Valley lions before I worked at the theater, I was working at a bank. And so that's when financial abuse really was being brought to my attention. And I was thinking that it was primarily focused on like the elder community that this was something that their kids might be taking advantage of them. But then as I dove into it more and I was in the banking world a little bit longer. I saw a wider spread spectrum of what financial abuse can look like. And then now being here at Southern Valley, lions, just my eyes being opened up to all of these other realms and possibilities and ways that someone could use finances to be able to gain that power and control. It's, it's remarkable the different ways. And any age, anyone can be experiencing this in a dating relationship, or romantic relationship, that intimate partner relationship, it can look like preventing employment, or interfering with your job, maybe bothering you so much at work that you end up getting fired or you lose your job. nonconsensual Credit Transactions can look like you leading to having a horrible credit score or filing for bankruptcy, and stealing money not being allowed to have account information or your own bank account. Or having that partner steal that information from you. ruining your credit history. Living together, but refusing to contribute to any of the expenses can also be a form of financial abuse. So it can look and be different like, like I mentioned before, depending on your situation, depending on what's happening within that relationship, it could look drastically different for each person.

Barb Greenberg: 00:16:21

And I want to clarify that you can get through it and there is help

Katie Schaumann: 00:16:26

and definitely re gain

Barb Greenberg: 00:16:29

your financial stability was created for the first time. Don't if you're hearing this don't have, you know,

Katie Schaumann: 00:16:42

there are so many great resources and people willing to help and educators willing to teach on how to gain credit and open a bank account. And what does all this look like? There's so much hope there's so much help.

Barb Greenberg: 00:16:59

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And then I have to ask about the digital stuff too. Because oh,well, you know, that's

Barb Greenberg: 00:17:06

Oh, my word. Yes, yes, the best thing that I can say to you is anything that can be done in person can also be done online. So you have to be thinking of when you are using these social media platforms, you can be verbally abused, you can be psychologically abused, you can be physically abused with threats, all of this can happen digitally. So just having that awareness and understanding of anything that can be done in person can potentially be done online and protecting ourselves knowing that our phones, these little devices can be a great tool for us. But they can also be used as a tool against us. So being aware of maybe it's, it's a really big trend to check in on places. Like when you're going to a movie and you check in like I'm at this theater with these people right now, that can be used as a tactic against you from your abuser, being able to keep tabs on you knowing where you're at when you're there who you're with. So just having that, that understanding and awareness of everything you put online, people can find. There are ways of being able to stay safe, there are ways of being able to put extra protection on your phone and staying technologically safe. And so definitely looking into those resources. And I've got some great information that I can share with you afterwards as well. But the forms of digital abuse can be expensive as well, using social media, like I said, as a GPS or tracking device, receiving or sending explicit content against your will. Controlling the relationships that you might have with people online, who you can be friends with who you can be having these conversations with controlling your passwords. And all that information is for you. And it's private. Social media platforms don't ask for two people's information when you're creating a login. So that information is yours. And it's private, and it's okay for you to keep it private. It's very easy for harm doers to kind of manipulate that and say, Well, we're in this relationship together. So that information is also mine. And that's just not true. And so there's just a lot of things to be looking out for and making sure that you kind of know about those red flags.

Barb Greenberg: 00:19:26

Wow, I had no idea that I mean, I should but I didn't close my age.

Katie Schaumann: 00:19:34

That's what I'm here for. That's what I'm here for. I'm here to help

Barb Greenberg: 00:19:38

all these all sorts of resources in the Episode Notes. So Not to worry though all the

Katie Schaumann: 00:19:46

lots of resources. And I know a little bit more about the digital abuse because I a huge part of my role. I'm going into middle schools and high schools. I'm teaching about healthy relationships and those warning signs of abuse to prevent it from happening in the Future. And all kids want to do these days is beyond their devices. So how can we keep our kids? How can we keep our teens and our students safe? Let's talk about technology. Let's talk about digital things, digital abuse, how can we keep ourselves safe? So

Barb Greenberg: 00:20:14

it's so smart. And you know, I'm going to flip back to wait, maybe, maybe I should have started with this. But what are some of the basic red flags to look for before you stay in this relationship? Because I was had a thing about fairy tales. I have a thing about fairy tales, they really irritate me. Yeah, you know, everything that Prince Charming was, was a red flag. Yeah, happens too quickly. He takes you away from your friends to his palace. He's gonna make all the decisions, cuz he's the prince, you know, definitely make all the decision. So there's lots of things that we don't even recognize, I think his rent to

Katie Schaumann: 00:20:54

land. Yeah. And I think you named so many of them, there's actually this great thing that I share a lot with the schools that I go into is the relationship spectrum. And I'll also make sure to send that link for you, thank you, all relationships exists on a spectrum, from healthy to abusive and unhealthy relationships kind of fit in the middle of that. And we want to be able to identify kind of those red flags at the unhealthy marks, we know how to navigate our relationship more towards the healthy side of the spectrum. There are great quizzes to take. It's wonderful, but you nailed nailed it, you named so many of those warning signs, those red flags, and the no communication or being isolated from your friends from your family. being pressured into doing activities that you're not interested in doing and feeling like you're only spending time together or not getting to see your friends and family, maybe no trust or little dishonesty or kind of feeling guilty if you don't spend time with your significant other because there could be that little piece of manipulation. So kind of having that guilt of, I want to go be with my friends or I want to spend time doing my own thing, doing my own hobby right now. But I kind of feel guilty because they really want me to spend time with them right now to what do I do. So it it's a very fine line when it goes from being healthy to unhealthy to abusive. And so just being aware of those things. And I wish that we had all the time in the world. But just just so you know that there are some things to be thinking about. And some great resources out there. I think that's that's the whole reason why I'm here today is just get this conversation started. Get those gears turning, because there are awesome tools and ways of saying, Oh, I used to think that this is okay, maybe not and learning more about yourself growing. It's this past year, being here at Southern Valley Alliance has opened my eyes up so much as to how I can be a better partner how I can be a better me as well. So that's, that's what I'm here to do is just help everyone else on their journey to

Barb Greenberg: 00:23:10

that is so wonderful. That is so wonderful. And I know on your sheet that you sent me to look at, yeah, two sticks towards the end, I think. And are there some juicy? Well, I mean, some of them were just like, whoa, but I think it would reassure people, women that if you're not alone, it's okay that there's you know, you're doing the best you can you're going to be alright, you can get through however you need to get through. Or if you're struggling, you know, there's there's just it's not an isolated, you're not alone in this. Exactly.

Katie Schaumann: 00:23:49

You truly are not alone. And we are here for you, all of us, everyone that's listening to the podcast BB our organization, similar organizations, we are here for you. And it's so true that you are not alone. The statistic specifically, this comes from the National Network against domestic violence, and the National Domestic Violence Hotline, which are very great resources, we can link them as well. But one in three women and one in four men in the United States have experienced some form of physical abuse from one of their partners. So even just hearing that statistic of one in three women and one in four men. I was like, Oh my word this. How is this happening? And no one is talking about it. Like we need to start breaking the silence about this because it is impacting so many people.

Barb Greenberg: 00:24:47

It makes me wonder what kind of a culture we've created. That there's so much anger or rage or disconnection or whatever, but that's a whole different topic. But

Katie Schaumann: 00:25:02

you mentioned before just that these things are being glamorized in media as being okay. And specifically when I'm going into schools and kids are talking about these TV shows and how they want someone to treat them as a certain character, and all I can think in my head is that's stalking that what is being depicted in that relationship on that television show is stalking and it's scary, and it's unhealthy. But it looks so romantic and so nice. And so Prince Charming esque when it's depicted on TV. And so I think that has that has a role to play in it for sure.

Barb Greenberg: 00:25:41

Is there another juicy statistic in there to share?

Katie Schaumann: 00:25:44

Oh, there are so many there are, I'm just looking at him here.

Barb Greenberg: 00:25:50

Take your time and pick what you think is like, ooh, that would be good. So

Katie Schaumann: 00:25:56

I know that we're specifically talking to a lot of women today. But you might have kids. And so it's important to know that like I mentioned before, this does impact anyone, anywhere at any time, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, it impacts everyone and one in three adolescents. So one in three people under the age of 18 have experienced some form of abuse as well. And so it's super important that we start having these conversations and break that stigma about dating abuse and domestic violence. So we can have these conversations, talk about what healthy relationships will look like, what does those warning flags look like having those conversations and being vulnerable with our kids and with our youth that were around as well, because they're experiencing it, they're afraid, and they don't know how to who to reach out to how to reach out. And so as we educate ourselves, also being aware of it, we should educate the young people around us, too.

Barb Greenberg: 00:27:00

That's so important. Can you imagine being a teenager and not and having an experience and not having anybody to talk to you about it? Or know, anybody? That would relate to you? I just, oh, wow, that's, uh huh. Talk to your children, please.

Katie Schaumann: 00:27:19

And if you don't know how I will share this resource as well, there are really, really wonderful websites and web pages on how to start that conversation with your kids. Or even how to start that conversation with yourself. Like, what does my relationship look like? Am I a healthy partner? Like having those conversations with yourself even it's there's so much self discovery while you go and start looking at what is healthy and what's not. And I've just been able to see myself grow so much, and I'm excited for everyone else, to be able to just continue to grow and flourish as well.

Barb Greenberg: 00:27:56

Oh, this was wonderful. You covered a lot of territory, and

Katie Schaumann: 00:28:01

I hope everyone was able to keep up.

Barb Greenberg: 00:28:04

Listen to it again, if you're new, definitely realize something what I'm what we do the first Tuesday of every month, we do a chat and chocolate on our site, you can see it on our website, rediscovering you like the letter you like university rediscovering you calm, and it's free. It's it's set from seven to eight Central Time. And it's just a bunch of women who ever wants to show up. It's usually a small group, and we just talk but this would be a great way to continue the conversation or to ask questions or to go. Have you guys ever had this situation? What do you think I should do? Or what did you do? Or who do you know? Or? Or just to be with a bunch of women who will make you laugh a little bit if you're struggling or something? Yes. And you can have chocolate if you want or a cup of tea or a glass of wine? For you. Lovely. It's really fun. But um, share where people can find you like your website or any anything else that's good inducing.

Unknown: 00:29:08

Yes, yes. So if you would like to know more information, please visit our website. It is s vamn.org. Or you can follow us on social media, Southern Valley Alliance, we are on all social media platforms. Those are great ways of getting connected. And do you want me to share like, my email or anything like that, but

Barb Greenberg: 00:29:34

all those things in the notes? Perfect. Oh, well, that will be right there for everybody. And I've just, you were wonderful. Oh my gosh, this was so this was so important. I'm so glad we connected. And thank you very, very much. I'm wondering if there was something I just I just can't say thank you enough. Because

Unknown: 00:29:57

well, I want to thank you for this opportunity. Unity and just for us to be able to get this conversation started, it can be hard. It can be tricky. But I want you all to know, again, you are not alone. We are in this together. And there are so many people that are readily there for you. So just don't hesitate to reach out because we've got your back.

Barb Greenberg: 00:30:20

Thank you so much, Katie. Yeah, thank you. Oh, you shared.

Katie Schaumann: 00:30:24

Well, thank you so much, Barb, have a great rest of your day

Katie Schaumann: 00:30:27

You to you, too.